re:invent(ed) Ep.1: Renowned Attorney Brett Ward on Reimagining Law Practice in an Era of AI and Extraordinary Change
In this premiere episode of re: invent(ed), host Nick Rosenberg sits down with Brett Ward, Co-Chair of Litigation at Blank Rome LLP, to discuss the art of reinvention — in both career and mindset.
Brett shares his personal journey from early work in civil rights to becoming one of the nation’s leading family law attorneys, reflecting on how technology and AI are transforming the legal landscape and what it means to stay human through it all.
They explore:
How reinvention defines long-term success in law and business
The rise of AI and its impact on client relationships and courtroom strategy
Why empathy, adaptability, and curiosity are essential in modern practice
How to stay open to change without losing authenticity
re:invent(ed) Ep. 1:
Podcast Transcript:
Hello and welcome. I'm your host, attorney Nick Rosenberg, and you're listening to Reinvented, part of the Look Legal pods from the law firm, Nolan Heimann
Change is happening, everyone. Just take a look around us. Look at just the technological changes that we've experienced in the last several years with AI. In this show, we're going to talk to people who have experienced changes, whether those changes are in their lives or in their professions, and learn about how they navigated those changes and not only survived, but thrived.
Nick Rosenberg (00:43)
Today, I'm really excited because I have a guest who's Brett Ward.
And he's one of the top family lawyers in the country. He's the co-chair of the litigation department at Blank Rome.
And he's in my business He's in entertainment. He's been featured in Variety Legal Impact Report of the Hollywood Reporter's top Hollywood troubleshooters, one of the best lawyers in America. And he's pretty much on every other list that matters. Brett, you've built a career handling some of the most complex, high stakes divorces and custody battles out there. And in the process, he has seen firsthand how the legal landscape is evolving, how family law is evolving, how the entertainment industry is evolving. And we're gonna talk about Brett's reinvention. We're gonna talk about, if there is a reinvention of family law, the reinvention of his career from being a public interest lawyer to high price, powerful Hollywood divorce attorney. And we'll talk you know, all kinds of other things, the psychology of conflict. Let's see what happens. Let's get into it. Brett, I am so excited you're here today. This is really cool.
Brett Ward (01:49)
I'm so excited to be here with you, Nick.
Nick Rosenberg (01:50)
so I've known you since like the ultimate reinvention, right? The reinvention that we go through when we go from being children to adults. How did you determine that you were gonna get into family law to start out? You went to law school. Did you know when you went to law school or did you go to law school like a lot of people and be like, I don't know what to do. I'm going to go to law school.
Brett Ward (02:12)
So first of all, thank you again for having me on this program. And yeah, we've known each other a long time. I'll say that I've known you since hair. Since you had a full head of hair, that's the first thing I...
Nick Rosenberg (02:21)
Not since the musical hair because I wasn't born yet, but yeah, since I have hair.
Brett Ward (02:25)
Right, right, right. And it was a full head of hair back in the day. And it's probably the first thing I remember about you is this puffy hair in the cafeteria.
Nick Rosenberg (02:32)
It was already like, thinning a little bit, but yeah, I did have some, you're right.
Brett Ward (02:36)
So, you know, your question assumes the answer, is no, I went to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer. It's weird. took a high school class. I'll tell a bit of a funny story, there was like a remedial law class when I was in high school and I was very interested in it. And I was supposed to be an AP English and they wouldn't let me in. said, you're in AP English, this is not for you. And I remember my mother went to the school, went to the vice principal's office and said, I'm not leaving here until my son's in that law course. And I loved that course so much. When I was a junior in high school, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer and it never, never wavered. I went to law school and I didn't know what different types of lawyers there were. You know, you see it on
Nick Rosenberg (03:15)
What did you love about the class? Do you remember?
Brett Ward (03:19)
You know, really just talking about the laws, the parameters, the constitution, you know, in high school it's a lot of constitutional theory and the like.
Nick Rosenberg (03:27)
Like good government civics, right? Stuff like that. Yeah.
Brett Ward (03:30)
Yeah, you know, an extension of in history and politics was also an interest of mine and this was just an extension of that. And it was a really excellent teacher who was a no nonsense teacher and I just loved the course. And so I always always go into law school was never a question in my mind. So I got to law school. I have to tell you, the classes on contract interpretation and the corporate law weren't very interesting to me. I ended up doing this clinic which was supposed to be like a family law clinic to try it. I got placed with the chief matrimonial judge for the state of New York, had a wonderful experience with her.
Nick Rosenberg (04:04)
Was that just an opportunity you saw where you like, this is something I might be interested in? Where you were like, man, I'm gonna check everything out. This sounds like a good thing to check out.
Brett Ward (04:12)
I would say more, was just checking everything out. it real estate I was interested in? Was it trust in estates? Any of those subjects? And this was a clinic and it was something that you were out in the world doing things. That was very interesting to me and appealing versus just sitting in a class and being lectured to. And I got to go to court every day and sit with the judge and she let me write a decision and really kind of gave me some backroom insight on the litigants and watching oral arguments. And I was hooked. I had a job with a big firm, but it wasn't in a great area was in New Jersey and it was going to be a long commute for me. And I was talking to her about it and she said, I don't like that for you. And she's like, let me make a call the next day. One of the top matrimonial firms in New York called me and offered me a job like after interviewing with them for like 20 minutes. And I ended up summering with them. However, I had already started doing some civil rights litigation, for a summer internship the year before. And they offered me a job and I was foolish and said, sure, $30,000 a year seems like plenty of money to live in New York. So I accepted that job and did that for four years. and then Blank.
Nick Rosenberg (05:15)
Now $30,000 is your hourly rate, probably.
Brett Ward (05:19)
almost almost it feels like we're going in that direction my friend
Nick Rosenberg (05:23)
So you're making $30,000, not an hour, a year, right? And you're working at a civil rights law firm. What are you doing there exactly? By the way, I do know the answer to these questions because I lived with Brett at this time, but keep going.
Brett Ward (05:32)
So. Right, right. And that's when, you know, we all had $5 to put together to buy ourselves, you know, Best Wingers to get. Those are good old days. I would go back today if I could. But so I was doing civil rights litigation, mainly 1983 stuff, which was a very unique thing. These two partners who actually also were a married couple and both incredibly brilliant, put together a firm that was in the child protective
Nick Rosenberg (05:46)
Yeah, but it was good. It was fun.
Brett Ward (06:06)
world where children were either put in foster care or were removed from their parents without a legal basis. So they were bringing federal civil rights lawsuits, like police brutality and the like when the government over exerts their power and authority. So I was doing that in the federal court. And I was also doing some family court work, fighting the battles at ground zero, so to speak, in the family courts where the children were trying to be taken away. So I kind of had a family law ish kind of practice, but with the federal civil rights element to it. And I loved it. I loved every second of it.
Nick Rosenberg (06:42)
now I remember when this happened, then you were representing people who were fighting the government, right, when the government was trying to do things that they deemed to be unjust, right, by taking their kids away, right? How did you end up in a situation where you're sort of doing the same thing, but it's on behalf of individuals, right, it's on behalf of people?
Brett Ward (06:57)
Huh?
Nick Rosenberg (07:03)
who a wife who's fighting with her husband about where are the kids you're gonna go and who should have them for how much of the time and all the other issues that go along with, know, the divorces of people that are more well off.
Brett Ward (07:18)
So many of the issues, psychology behind it and obviously the legal issues are similar, but
Nick Rosenberg (07:27)
So hold on, you're telling me, let's pause, that disadvantaged people and wealthy people have the same psychological issues. This is news. You mean we're all people, whether regardless of our socioeconomic background. Okay, amazingly.
Brett Ward (07:41)
All right, big tech. Amazingly, they all love their kids. People with money and people without money love their kids, want to have their kids, and they both have struggles. Addiction isn't something that just the poor struggles with, it's something that rich people struggle with.
Nick Rosenberg (08:00)
Wow. Right. So you're literally dealing with the same issue. You're dealing defending a mom who the government wants to take her kids away because she just got back from rehab. And now you're dealing with a mom whose ex-husband wants to take her kids away because she just got back from rehab.
Brett Ward (08:18)
Right. You know what the big difference is? Is that it's harder to find a rehab for someone who can't afford it. That's the big difference. I have the same problems. Rich people just have access to more solutions. That's the difference in the world I am in. And because in these cases, what I find is that with people with addiction, people want them to get better and the legal system will get behind the person.
Nick Rosenberg (08:31)
100%.
Brett Ward (08:47)
who's really working hard to make themselves a better place. And they will open the door to trust and the like when they see someone working hard in the process, because they want that person to know, yes, the promise we made to you, which is if you go get help, it's gonna get better. So in the cases with people with money and you get them into the rehab and then you get them into the good outpatient programs and their process in getting
Nick Rosenberg (09:13)
Right.
Brett Ward (09:17)
more time with their kids and getting rid of the supervisors and the like goes along a lot faster because it's the parade of success that everybody wants to be a part of. They want to be a part of this win. So the doors open much wider for the people who have the ability and money is sometimes that ability and the desire and the intention to become better people. And I will tell you in those cases, this if you if I were to tell you or if you were to ask me so I'm going to ask you the questions I'm going tell you the questions you should be asking me and not even give me a chance to speak. if you were to. What?
Nick Rosenberg (09:51)
That seems like, yeah, that's on, that tracks for you, Brett. Go ahead.
Brett Ward (09:56)
But if you had asked me, what's the joy, the most joy you get out of your job, because it's a hard job, matrimonial, family law, these are hard issues. People are at their worst, highly emotional, you know, what's the joy you get? Two things that bring me the most joy. When I have someone struggling with addiction issues and I help them get to a better place, that is incredible joy for me. And the other one, which is far more often for me is when I have someone who's a victim of domestic violence whether it's physical violence, whether it's emotional financial control, and I get them out of that situation where you get them back to their selves and that they, that cycle of violence is broken and that they can now become a better parent, a teacher or, you know, lawyer or whatever they are and find security and realize that what they were in was such a horrible situation that they shouldn't be exposed to. And they call me two years after the divorce and said, boy, if I knew how wonderful it was right now, I would have divorced this person four years ago and I couldn't have done it without you. That's the pinnacle of my professional joy. And I've had a lot of professional success. work at one of the most amazing firms there is in the world. have incredible colleagues, but those moments when I get that message from someone who has bettered their lives with my assistance, that's the pinnacle for me.
Nick Rosenberg (11:02)
Right. So you, I mean, despite the fact you started your career in one area of the law and are in a different place now, working with a different type of population, the reward that you're getting out of it is still the same in large part, right? Because I remember like when you worked at your prior firm, that was what you found rewarding. because obviously, you know, wasn't the money based on what you told us but you still have that. And it's like, for people that are listening right now and they're thinking about how do I need to change in my life? Do I need to change? I think there's something instructive about that. It's like, maybe you don't love what you're doing right now for whatever reason, but what is the thing that you do like? And how do you find that somewhere else? How do your like, do your values remain intact when you change careers or change industries or change an industry?
Brett Ward (12:15)
So I want to respond to what you just said, and then I want to ask you a question if I know, one of my dirty little secrets is, is that I love watching TikTok. Okay. And the things I like on TikTok, other than the food stuff So I love to see what restaurants there are all over the world. So when I travel there, I can make sure I go to the top places. And then there's a lot of like, I have two dogs, I love animals. So there's all this, you know, animal thing, but there's a lot of motivational speakers, guys like Simon Sinek also went to college with us a little bit older and other kind of people talk about leadership and motivation. And one of the things that I take from it is that people say, if you're saying like, I'm following my dreams, like I'm going to go to work to find joy and success. It's unlikely. You're looking in the wrong places. That's not work. Work is to go and work hard, earn money, be great at it. It's finding joy in what you do, not having work be your joy.
Nick Rosenberg (13:13)
Yeah, my uncle always would say, if it was supposed to be fun, they wouldn't call it work. Right? And it's like, there's some truth to that, right? They call it something else.
Brett Ward (13:19)
Right. Right. And that's what it is. It's that, look to be the best at what you do. That opens opportunities in terms of success and the like. don't go to work thinking this is going to be the best part of my day. Go to work saying, how can I make work the best it could be for me today? But I want to ask you, because you had a similar transition to what I did. You came out of law school. We actually have the opposite kind of path. You went to law school, got a big firm, did really well in law school, got a big firm job, was doing the corporate thing, was a part of major deals and, you know, found success and people were taking you to different firms because they love working with you. And then you had been someone I know who had a passion for music your whole career. And you said, look, I'm going to make this transition into what was my passion. And you're doing obviously the kind of deal side of things, but I want to know, you know, what gave you the courage to make that move?
And of course you found the success in Billboard magazine and this and that. You have that going for you and you're out there with the famous people that I'm kind of helping represent too. So where did that courage come from you or the motivation and the like?
Nick Rosenberg (14:19)
Yeah. it's funny the way things turn out, right? when I first went to law school, the idea was, I want to do this. I want to work in the music business, right? Put aside the fact that there might've been more direct routes to working in music. But I was like, I want to be a music lawyer. That sounds good. But like, in a way, doing well in law school was sort of threw me off the track because then I sort of found myself in the rat race of being at Fordham and doing well and seeing all the other people doing well and then getting in the, I want to do the whole like, get a job that pays a lot of money, and not think about what I went there for. So to your point, I mean, I ended up working at a big law firm, but then a funny thing happened, which wasn't funny at the time, which is that the first law firm I worked for just went out of business after a year. And I was able to very quickly turn around and get a job working for an entertainment lawyer, somebody who did music, somebody that I knew before law school. And that, I was there for like two years and, Brett, I related when you said about not making much money because I went from making big firm money to making half that, right? And felt lucky at the time because this was like right in 2007 when like the shit was hitting the fan. And I was like, man, making half the money right now with only a year experience under my belt, that's pretty good. And, I learned a lot about the music industry, right? I learned a lot about doing agreements in the music industry, but the money was challenging. So I ended up going back to a big firm and spending more time there. And after time at a couple different big firms, with that little bit of experience, you know, a couple years experience, I had gotten under my belt. I was able to start actually doing this work, right? I had the confidence to say, you know what? I can start representing music producers. I can start representing songwriters, recording artists, and no, it's not gonna be exclusively what I do, and I'll still do M&A and commercial contracts and all the stuff that I do. I was luckily at firms, big AmLaw 100 law firms that were sort of like, hey, as long as you're getting your other work done, bring clients in, we don't care. They don't pay, I mean, it's, know, and they did pay, they just didn't pay, you know, it wasn't like ⁓ guys that are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars of bills, they're gonna do whatever you want.
So I was able to take clients in, work on these matters. And eventually I got to a place where I was like, you know what? I'm making enough money in this practice that it doesn't mean much to my firm, but it would mean a lot to me. So I took that money and I went out on my own, right? And I started my own firm. And then in doing that, I started working with some folks at where I am now, Nolan Heimann on a deal and like, you know, it was a blessing because started working with a woman, the founding partner Nolan Heimann, Wendy Heimann Nunes, she and I just like hit it off right away on the deal that we were working on. And she was like, you should come to our firm. We don't have anybody who does music. And I was like, that sounds like a great idea. I'm going to do that because I'd rather work with people than work on my own. And you guys are awesome. And yeah, that's how I sort of got where I am. And then I had the opportunity to reinvent a little bit there also because I've been doing a lot more work in areas beyond music and TV. I've been doing a lot of work in outdoor entertainment, immersive entertainment, which has been really cool. And I've got to work on some really cool big deals. So yeah, that's basically it. And I haven't, don't think I've told that story on this show yet. So thanks, Brett. I appreciate that.
Brett Ward (18:02)
I have one more question, even though I'm not the host. that question is, I know before you went to law school, you had a few different jobs, Hot Jobs, Thompson Bank Watch. I think you dabbled in the mortgage-backed securities before that thing blew up. But I know that was short-lived because you saw how awful that whole thing was, I think, the third day at work. But how much do you think those working in New York, low level positions, not making a ton of money influenced you and not going into the music industry right away, which would have been a kind of continuation of that low level thing. And instead making the bigger bucks right out of law school and at a big firm.
Nick Rosenberg (18:44)
boy, you really, you really, I wasn't prepared for these questions. I think it made me realize, well also I was at a different point in my life when I went to law school because I had done those things before and I had less patience for not making a lot of money. And not that I ever, when I graduated even from college was like making that little money. I like sort of was able to get into jobs that paid me all right. But I think it made me realize like, I think I understood better at that point that it's better to sort of get broad-based experiences that have application a wide array of things than it is to be really, really narrow cast, right? And I had seen that based on what I'd done before because what I started my career doing was sales. And this is before law school. And with sales, realized, wow, like sales has applications in so many different businesses. mean, you and I, do sales now, right? Every business. So I think seeing that sales like that I could take doing sales at Thompson Financial and I could take that and I could go to hotjobs.com or I could sell mortgages or I could sell lawnmowers, right? Sort of made me realize, you know what? Get a big skillset first, right? There's something to be said about that. In other words, understand when you work in the corporate department of a big law firm, you're seeing all kinds of contracts. When you're working on M&A deals, you're understanding industries in the big picture. You're seeing a lot of their agreements and what they do. And you learn a lot. It's somewhat shallow, but a lot of the time, that's what you need, right? Shallow is fine because you just need to know enough to know how to ask the right questions and get to the next thing. And that's something that I think that I'm pretty good at is like taking little bits of information, integrating them and then asking the right questions. So I think that experience early on and seeing how big skill sets skill sets that can be broadly applied will have greater application is what led me into being like, you know what, don't just jump into like doing, you know, music publishing contracts right away, because the fact of the matter is, and this is no disrespect to my colleagues, people who have only done that, they don't necessarily understand a lot that can be really challenging, or to the extent they do, it just takes them a long time. They have to see a lot of things because usually it's the same thing over and over I imagine, in what you do, you almost have the experience of a corporate transactional lawyer because when you're dealing with these business people and you're sort of taking apart their lives and their businesses, you have to look in a lot of stuff in a lot of detail, right? You need to understand what's going on with fund three, right? Before fund four can start, because that's gonna have an impact on your client or your clients former wife or whatever it is. you had to like dig into a lot of these issues I would imagine.
Brett Ward (21:46)
There is a part of this, which is a jack of all trades, but I want to, you know, and bring back something you just said, cause you know, the, the, the aspect of transformation in this podcast, what you just said is probably the thing I give advice for any young person, which is to get the most broad based knowledge you can get on anything because industries change, industries die, new industries pop up, but the more experience you have in a broad based way, the more you're able to adapt as things change and as you need to change. when people with a limited scope, because of technology and as fast as it's going right now, there will be industries that you and I were crucial when we came out of college that will be dead if they're not already dead. if that's...
Nick Rosenberg (22:22)
A HUNT. And by the way, dude, you're so spot on. Keep going. Say more.
Brett Ward (22:33)
But so, so what you just said, I think is, probably one of the best themes you can have in terms of being prepared for the transformations in life is to have these broad based, knowledges about stuff. you know, again, I represent people who are the, you know, CEOs or big deal makers at these firms. A lot of these people started out as these analysts who went and looked at every little detail of a company and by learning the smallest details of this company. mean, they went to the sites, looked at the production did all this, that is how they are now in their positions making $10 million a year analyzing what a good deal or bad deal and advising people on major massive, front page of the New York Times mergers that they started literally looking at the books of the smallest companies there were and understanding all the inter workings of them.
Nick Rosenberg (23:25)
Right, like getting on a Southwest flight to Des Moines, right, to go spend time with the guys who work on ⁓ the assembly line.
Brett Ward (23:33)
Right. And those, that assembly line experience is helping them advise the most sophisticated companies in the world of what companies they should buy.
Nick Rosenberg (23:36)
Yeah. Ha, say more. Something just occurred to me recently. So it's talking about how everything's changing. It's just getting me thinking about AI, right? The way I use AI in my practice now, I, some people are like, can I tell my clients? I tell my clients because the value I add is not giving you all the details and writing the thing in detail. It's knowing what questions to ask and how to put something together. And how you use AI is gonna be about that skillset. Do you understand how to prompt it the right way so that you get what you want? And that requires knowing a lot or knowing at the top level, getting to the details of it, being like understanding what cases finding the specific case that you need is gonna be less important than understanding the type of case that you need. I mean, that's sort of the case when you're doing legal research now, right? You're starting out thinking like, yeah, maybe you don't know all the cases, right? But you know what you need, right? And you're gonna send somebody to go find it, right? And now maybe or less so, it's a junior associate, but at some point it's gonna be like, you know, Lexus's chat CPT.
Hey, be like, I need a case about that's gonna say this, right? Find this for me. But that's the work, right? We too often think that the work is like the hitting the hammer into the nail. I was working with a client recently and we needed to come up with the term sheet. And it's like, I'm not drafting a term sheet. I'm not gonna sit down and write term sheet at the top of the paper. make bullets format the whole thing? No, I'm going to be like, this is what I need in my term sheet. What can you come up with? Okay, that's cool. What if we did this, this and this? Does that make sense? But that's because I have that experience, right? That you're talking about that broad based experience. Have you guys like at Blank Roam or in your own practice, have you you started incorporating AI at all? Do you have any tools yet?
Brett Ward (25:43)
There's a thousand percent. have multiple tools here. We have both the legal research tools. We have the kind of non-legal research tools, more of the, gaining the information that's out there in the world on people, places, mysteries of companies and the like. We really have got ahead of that. And I think the clients very much appreciate it. You know, they love to hear. tell them, listen, I now...
Nick Rosenberg (25:56)
Right.
Brett Ward (26:08)
When I am doing my initial consultation, I let them know, here's how we're using AI and here's how we're not. So like for me, there is no legal research that begins with AI with me. Your research is done, but legal research is concluded with AI. use it as closing the circle. Okay. And making sure there's nothing missing because AI and legal research is still a very dangerous thing. You know, I'll have clients like.
Nick Rosenberg (26:14)
Right.
Brett Ward (26:35)
AI it and send me back saying, how come you missed these six cases? And I'll exactly right. But I have to tell you, like at first I'm like, the first time this happened to me, I'm like, oh my God, like, did I make a terrible mistake? And then, and then I start and I. Right. You know, like didn't have your client point out something that you missed. And I went to the associate, I was like, please bring me all these cases. Like I don't even want you to do it. I'll read it all. And she went back and said, these cases don't exist. And in fact, one of them that they, that she cites in her.
Nick Rosenberg (26:38)
You're like, because they're not real they don't exist. God, the worst feeling as a lawyer, by the way, it's like...
Brett Ward (27:04)
like email to you actually says the exact opposite of what her email says. There was one that was real. And at one point I was like, okay, this is a lesson learned. I lead the group of litigators. I also work in my specific field when I was speaking to the attorneys in the group within which I work. I said to them, this isn't jump on the boat. AI, we're on the boat. You can either be on the boat rudderless, not knowing.
Or you could figure out to grab the wheel and learn how to steer it. And I don't need you to be an expert. And this is exactly what you said. But I need you to know what you don't know. I need you to know how to ask the right questions. We have support here. Get a training. said, this is the most significant legal development and really technological development. But in our world, this is most significant legal development of our careers. This is the biggest game changer for all of us in every sort of way. And to be like
Nick Rosenberg (27:38)
Right.
Brett Ward (27:58)
Well, that's not how I do it. You because you think about it, one of the things big firms, the model and a lot of them, the leverage that they had all these associates because they get to these huge document reviews, right? And they have like big, firms, document reviews is like the first two years and you can bill millions wear her. Millions of dollars, the stuff that it took an associate. A month to do AI does in two minutes.
Nick Rosenberg (28:10)
Right. Right, and you could build millions of dollars on a document review, yep. I think about like M&A doing due diligence. It's like find me a change of control provision. You'd have people just going through every contract, looking through change of control provisions. mean, yeah, AI, you could just be like, just find anything about change of control and send all that to me and I'll review it. Even if I did that, I'd save a ton of time by not having to open up the dumb documents.
Brett Ward (28:33)
All right, bye. Right, but this is a big equalizer. You know, there are small matrimonial firms now who can take a huge document demand and have it synthesized in a digest in 20 minutes.
Nick Rosenberg (28:48)
my gosh. Wow, so hold on, I wanna talk about that for a second. So in other words, one of the tactics of big litigation departments is the ability to bury somebody, right? And it's sort of unfair, but it's the game, right? So you're saying now because of AI, these litigants who are not as well-financed are going to be able to respond to these.
These like nuclear tactics that firms were able to use against them or that rich people could use against small litigants, litigants are gonna be able to be like, ha, I can handle this. It's not gonna even cost me that much money. That never occurred to me.
Brett Ward (29:34)
So yes and no, there's still a lot of games that can be playing motions that make motion after motion. You know what I mean? And I'm not, by no means am I saying Blank Rome does this. I'm just saying, but big firms, what I've been understanding, right. But AI can be a very huge equalizer. Like you said, you had a deal.
Nick Rosenberg (29:39)
cheap, a lot of cheap, a lot of cheap chicanery as our friend would say. Right. Well it's small firms. People do it. It's litigation, right?
Brett Ward (30:00)
and they say, we need a term sheet by tomorrow. You, maybe three other people, we're gonna get together and work throughout a night, maybe 12 hours. And if you're a solo practitioner, you've got three other things, you've got kids, you've got a family, you might not be able to do that or handle that case or get that deal. But now that person can probably do this thing in an hour and a half with the AI aided. That is a huge equalizer in the legal industry and in many other industries, I'm sure. But in the legal industry, a huge equalizer because the manpower is no longer individuals, it's the computer. A lot of that manpower has been taken over. So what I tell and advise my people is, now what value are you bringing? Because I'll tell you one of the values, availability. I always say the best ability is availability. Are you the one taking the calls from clients at nights and the weekends? Because that is still a benefit you can give. That's still the first class white glove treatment you can give to clients. Are you honing your trial skills or your oral argument skills. I am literally going this weekend, actually when this is over, I'm heading up to Saratoga, New York for the New York State Bar of Family Law section CLE, which I'm giving and helping put on, on this oral argument skills, because that is still a differentiator. AI is not gonna argue a case in front of a judge. So what you need to do now is just working hard and working a lot may not be the differentiator it used to be. So you gotta find other ways to give that
Nick Rosenberg (31:29)
to differentiate.
Brett Ward (31:30)
premium service to deserve the premium fees.
Nick Rosenberg (31:34)
Right, so it's like, you gotta think about, it's not just, you gotta be the best at everything. It's like, no, what are the things that you need to be the best at? You know what just occurred to me as you were saying that, and I'm sure somebody's written about this, the impact that AI will have on pro se litigants, right? Like, we're probably gonna see a lot more of that now I've seen pro se paperwork and I'm impressed when anybody, I'm impressed when any non-lawyer, can respond, can file a complaint, even if it's lousy, right? But this is gonna mean like they can come up with paper that's pretty good. And if they're careful about it, we'll probably start to see tools for it. We'll see people saying, hey, gotta check your citations, right? But that's gonna make a big difference in the industry, I bet, in terms of, especially at smaller matters. Yeah, it's interesting.
Brett Ward (32:22)
mean, if someone needed a short, I don't know, agreement related to certain rights or even have a small contract they want to do with, two people want to do a partnership agreement, a very simple partnership agreement. I don't know that they need a lawyer for that anymore. They could find that in five minutes. You know what I mean? Probably find 12 different versions and what's this and that, maybe just talk to a friend for 10 minutes. But yes, I agree with you.
Nick Rosenberg (32:42)
No, I don't think. mean, take it.
Brett Ward (32:52)
that these transformational things have to be thought about. You know I mean? And the people who right now are figuring out what AI is going to cover and how they are going to excel in the areas that AI can't take over at least in the short term, and maybe it could take over everything at some point. But those people who are gonna thrive, I don't know if you've heard the analogy, there's a...
If you ever heard of 11 Madison Park, the restaurant here in New York, and again, this is like my TikTok knowledge, but they, they tell a story of how the owner was like the 50th ranked or a hundredth ranked restaurant in the world. And he wanted to be number one. so he took everybody to the number one restaurant in the world. And he had them, go to a couple dinners there.
Nick Rosenberg (33:21)
Yeah, of course.
Brett Ward (33:38)
And he said, OK, what did you guys notice? And then he said, they do this well, this well. He said, I don't care what they do really well. What didn't they do really well? And he said, because that's what we're going to master at our restaurant. All right? And I think one of the issues was like, the coffee was pretty mediocre. And he's like, we're going to have a sommelier of coffee. We're going to offer different coffees, and we're going to make that the best thing at our restaurant. And that's kind of the analogous situation here. It's what Netflix did with Blockbuster. Blockbuster, Netflix found the three biggest problems with Blockbuster. One, you had to rewind the video. Two, you didn't get to keep it for as long as you wanted. And three, the store had to be open when you wanted it to get something. Netflix solved those three problems and blew them out of the water. That's what we have to do now with AI. We have to find out what AI is going to control. All right. And then do what it doesn't do the best.
Nick Rosenberg (34:30)
That's dude, those are gems, It sounds like you're really taking to it. I would imagine that there's a lot of lawyers out there that are completely resistant to this. Do you find that? you coming across those people or is Blank Rome taking a very sort of aggressive stance and saying, Hey, you can't be resistant to this. This is not an option for y'all.
Brett Ward (34:53)
So I would say it's somewhere in the middle, but closer to you can't ignore this. we are, drawing the analogies for people about the value of this. It's just like anybody who used to say, I don't use Westlaw or, or Lexis Nexus. I go to the books and like, nobody does that. You know, so, we have a really excellent chairman and managing partner who isn't the type to force things on people, but it's.
Nick Rosenberg (35:11)
Right.
Brett Ward (35:18)
just like a guide into the world that we have to, you know, head into. And so we are being strongly encouraged. We're doing trainings, we're doing our tech people come in and do demonstrations to each practice group to show them, Like that they'll like sit in a room and digest, couple thousand pages of a deposition in three minutes. And then they'll ask a question like, please show.
Every time the deponent got angry and they would get this disclaimer, know, AI can't judge emotions, but you know, certainly there are certain triggers where you think they're emotional and then they would show like 12 places in thousands of pages of depositions of where that person actually did get emotional and they basically nailed it every time. And when you're, and when you're there watching this, the demonstration that's happening live.
Nick Rosenberg (36:04)
my gosh.
Brett Ward (36:11)
You're thinking to yourself, I need to use this. So the percentages of use of this is going up. But yes, there are resistant people. There are always people who resistant to change. So that is happening. But I tell, the associates sometimes they make a mistake and have me, meet the young associates and talk to them about, my expectations and life at Blank Rome. I tell them this is an opportunity, an opportunity for you guys to make yourselves essential day one. If you master this, you will have a fine career no matter where you are.
Nick Rosenberg (36:41)
And by the way, you have an advantage that even we don't have and we're relatively tech savvy compared to the people older than us even, but they are so much more so. They're digitally native, right? We're gonna start to have kids, you're gonna start to have them that like grew up with AI, right? That's an opportunity for y'all if you understand. If you were doing this in high school, right? ⁓
Brett Ward (37:05)
Right. If you were cheating on your exams in high school with AI, it is going to prepare you for life.
Nick Rosenberg (37:09)
You have a career for you at Blank Rome. If you're... No, it's funny. So I just, one more thing before we go. So we talked about the fact that you are a... on the Variety list, Hollywood Reporter, as one of the biggest divorce lawyers in this business. It makes me sort of realize that another marriage, divorce, children, these are all like sort of reinvention points in people's life. How would you, how can people be prepared for like the family reinventions that they undergo in their life, whether it's getting married, getting divorced, any of those things. And I don't mean necessarily like get a prenup, right? I don't know, I mean more broadly. How is it gonna impact them? How can they change?
Brett Ward (38:00)
I would say to you that most of marriages don't work out because people don't change. Okay. That's what it requires. The ability to change, the willingness to change, to understand that at different stages of your life, you're different. All right. And are different and have to manage your expectations. go through this period of total dependence on your family.
Nick Rosenberg (38:08)
Right.
Brett Ward (38:25)
Then you hopefully go off to college or you go to work and it's, or you go off to the military service and it's total independence. Right. And then you start to meet someone and then you have to get back into the codependency situation. And then you get in children and you lose your independence all over again. And, you know, I was, ⁓ speaking to, a family member recently who has young kids and we were talking about vacation.
And I had to break the news to him that once you have kids, you don't have vacations anymore. Unless you can find a way to go away yourself or with your wife without the kids. You are just traveling somewhere to give your children a vacation. Okay. Right. You don't like, you don't get to just lay out in the sun and not worry. They want to go swimming and they're young. You, you're getting up, you're going to watch them in the pool. If they want to then go to the beach, you're going to go bring them to the beach. You got to make sure to remember to get them food. you're not going to be having three or four cocktails and
Nick Rosenberg (39:04)
Right. Your kids get vacation.
Brett Ward (39:20)
relaxing and doing that. And then, you know, got to have them showered and to make sure they brush their teeth. And then you got to fight with them to get to bed. And literally the time they go to sleep, you're like, ⁓ it's my time now. You're probably passed out in the bed yourself, exhausted from the whole day of carrying everything, going back and forth, doing all those things. So the key here for success in these things is being willing to understand that life changes, you have to adjust to those changes and that the good
Nick Rosenberg (39:33)
Right.
Brett Ward (39:50)
comes with change. All right? When you marry someone, you love them and you have this partner, it's amazing, but you have to understand you can't go out with your buddies four nights a week going drinking if your partner isn't into that. All right? You can't watch sports every day or go golfing all day Sunday if your partner wants some time with you and you're not seeing each other a lot during the week. And once you have kids, you have to understand your weekends aren't anymore. Hey, the day's off.
Your weekends are driving everywhere, watching them play in a swim meet and sitting at a swim meet for three and a half hours to watch them do a 15 second race. All right. And then you have to run and get them food and bring them back. So you do it all over again the next day and you have to find joy in that. And the truth is most parents, I believe by Sunday night can't wait to get back to work because it's easier than the whole weekend routine they just did with their kids. And if you can't accept that. All right, then it's a tough thing. You know what mean?
Nick Rosenberg (40:37)
Yeah. It's funny though, right? Like, gosh, now having kids that are driving and stuff. And like right now my daughter's at camp and Alex is by himself and he like has a job and he has a car. And it's like, there's kind of like, not that much for me to do as a parent. And it feels a little bit weird because he sort of handles it himself. He has two jobs, right? He can buy a lot of the stuff that he wants, right?
And he does, I mean, sometime, but no, he doesn't need me to drive in places. Like, especially now he has the car 100 % of the time. He doesn't have to share it with his sister. Right? So I'm already sort of starting to feel the, gosh, what is it going to be like not having those responsibilities in the same way? Like I still like, they still can't go to doctor's appointments by themselves. You know, like I got to take them to doctor's appointments, but like,
Brett Ward (41:14)
He doesn't necessarily need you to drive him places anymore.
Nick Rosenberg (41:40)
I don't know. ⁓ And it's like, then there's the next stage, right? You reinventing oneself after, you know, their kids aren't in the house.
Brett Ward (41:48)
Well, I want to actually, cause again, this is something relevant to my life right now. And my son said, I want a specific vacation with you dad this summer. I want to go away. And you know, my wife was like, Hmm, you know, that's kind of hard and you know, unfair and we have other trips. And in the end, I had to make a very difficult decision to have a talk with her and say to her, look, I need you to know everything you said about this is right. It's an entitled thing. My son is asking me, you know, we have other trips that should be enough, but in two years.
My son's going away to college and I'll be desperate if he'll come home and spend a vacation with me. And the fact that he still wants that now, I'd have to take that opportunity. And that piece of it, I think is also something that would bring going back to your last question, a lot of, ⁓ to everybody's life. they realized that no phase of your life lasts forever, you can live in that moment and appreciate it and not miss opportunities.
Nick Rosenberg (42:22)
100%. No.
Brett Ward (42:46)
while you're living in the moment and realize it. I was a late bloomer. You know, in college, I probably could have gone to class a little bit more. I could have taken, and I did well, but I could have done better. And it wasn't until law school that I got really serious about my, academic studies. But even then, I wish I had, not that I went to the class because I would have gotten an A plus instead of an A, I wish I went to the class so I had the knowledge.
Nick Rosenberg (42:53)
Me, I'll cut it. Yeah.
Brett Ward (43:12)
You know what mean? That knowledge, I would sit in that class right now if I could to gain that knowledge. And it took me until a little later in my life to realize that appreciate where you are, appreciate this place. You know, I just turned 50. You know what I mean? That was a big emotional birthday for me. I couldn't care less about birthdays, but this one hit hard for me because you look, no man in my family has made it to 80 that I'm aware of. So I like to say my life is half over. I don't know if it's, if I'm lucky, if I'm lucky, it's only half over.
Nick Rosenberg (43:35)
Wow, that is. Right.
Brett Ward (43:42)
So I do everything I can and I'm very big in a Carpe Diem mode right now. Appreciate this aspect of your life where you can travel, where you can go see friends, where you can enjoy the good life because you don't know what health challenges or family challenges are in the next phase of your life. So it's not only about adjusting to change, which can help people with these transformations, but it's appreciating where you are and the goodness of each phase. I think will keep you from regret when you meet the next transformation.
Nick Rosenberg (44:15)
Right, it's really, you know, it's a great point. You know, the idea of we're always thinking about changing. We're always thinking about what we're going to do next. You know, there's people that talk about how like, one of the problems with our economic system, with capitalism, what's have you, is like, there's always growth. We always need more growth, year over year, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, assumes change and development all the time. And it's like, that is our mindset, right? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? And it's like, to your point.
Like sometimes we do need to sit and appreciate where we are. Even if that where we are, is it necessarily ideal? Right? Because everybody like looks back and says, man, you know, like you went and you talked about when we lived together and we didn't like have any money and like, you're like, I would go back to that. And I'm like, yeah, I would too. Right? Like, yes. So we live with our third roommate who lived in like a cave in our apartment. Right? Like.
Brett Ward (44:52)
Right. 100%.
Nick Rosenberg (45:11)
And still that was awesome. And like we were on top of each other and like we hated each other at times and you know, whatever, but 100%, 100 % dude. so, yeah, I think that's a good place to wrap. ⁓ And I really enjoyed doing this, Brett. We're gonna do it again.
Brett Ward (45:17)
And it was one of the best times of my life.
Nick Rosenberg (45:32)
Yeah, maybe you should start a podcast and I can be your guest. You're a good host.
Brett Ward (45:37)
I have to say if I can find a place to fit that into my life, I would be happy to do it. listen, it was real pleasure, Nick.
Nick Rosenberg (45:42)
I mean, Brett, you talk plenty. You just move some of that talking into like a recorded setting. like, yeah, I'm not wrong. You're one of the few people that says that. Thank you so much. I appreciate you a lot. Again, that was Brett Ward. Great time talking to him. Thanks everybody. Till next time, peace out.
Brett Ward (45:48)
that just bring a microphone and do all that. Listen, you're not wrong.
Bye.
Nick Rosenberg (46:05)
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